A friend of mine at work today let loose with one of their "Jesus F-in Christ on a G-D cross" blasts. I've talk to this person before about how I don't appreciate this type of outburst and this person understands and does their best to control it.
So what is the point of this post? First and foremost, IT'S NOT DESIGNED TO CONDEMN MY COWORKER! I just want to examine using tbe Lord's name in vain, which I unfortunately do on occasion, and why it's so universally accepted.
Why and how has our country as a whole moved to accepting using the name of Christ as a throw away curse? I find it interesting on several levels. One, many folks have made a bunch of noise recently (Obama I'm looking directly at you and most of your supporters) about the good ol' US of A not being a Christian nation. If that's the case, how do you account for the prevalence of the Christian culture and terms that we use, especially when cursing?
Two, what do we think we're going to accomplish by bringing up the Lord's name when we're trying to condemn something strongly (which is what you're consciously or subconsciously doing when cursing)? Is it because we think that we'll give an extra amount of gravitas to our exhortation? Is it because the person doesn't believe in God, and if that is the case, why would we even bring His name up in a curse? Finally, and this is pointed directly at me, why do believers dare to drag down Christ's name when He gave everything up for us to be able to to come to Him and the Father when we're done with our Earthly stay?
I don't really have any answers...just wanted to throw these out there to see if anyone else does. Comment away!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
37 comments:
"One, many folks have made a bunch of noise recently (Obama I'm looking directly at you and most of your supporters) about the good ol' US of A not being a Christian nation. If that's the case, how do you account for the prevalence of the Christian culture and terms that we use, especially when cursing?"
OK- I think I may have found the source of some of our differences on this topic (see my comments on the Dobson post for a recap of my views).
What is the definition of a Christian nation? I don't think I understand the phrase in the same way you do.
I'll wait for your response before going further with my comments.
A Christian nation to me means a nation founded on the basic principles of Christianity, but by no means a nation governed by or forcing it citizens to subscribe to its beliefs.
I'd like to Leave the historical debate aside for a moment.
To be clear, in your ideal world, we are not a nation that is to be "governed by" Christian beliefs?
Correct. We are a country founded on the ideal that our government will not form an official religion. However, the basis of our freedoms, I believe, are founded on the basic tenets/principles of Christianity.
So what happens when your interpretation of the "tenets/principles of Christianity" come into conflict with someone else's policy goals. Let's say, for example, gay marriage.
In your ideal vision for this country, how does this work itself out? Freedoms derived from Christianity, but no one governed by its beliefs?
Matthew,
I feel we've gotten off topic a little bit here, but I'll respond.
As far as "what happens," well frankly nothing, really. We discuss and, if necessary, we disagree.
"In your ideal vision for this country, how does this work itself out? Freedoms derived from Christianity, but no one governed by its beliefs?"
This is a muddled comment. I never said ideal version...I said we are a Christian nation, per my definition. Everyone is governed by the government, which I believe was founded on Christian beliefs. So using that line of logic, they would be governed by those beliefs.
I do not nor promote the government establishing a religion, which would directly go against our Constitution.
I'm sorry if my comments are muddled. I'm simply seeking clarity on what you mean by asserting that we live in a Christian nation. Bringing gay marriage into the conversation was meant to be a test case to see what it actually means for you, in a real situation, to live in a Christian nation with folks of many (or no) religious beliefs who may disagree with the "Christian belief" on the issue.
Most folks who assert that we live in a Christian nation are doing so, in my experience, to argue for the normative claims of their beliefs even for others who don't share their faith. So Pat Robertson, for example, claims we're a Christian nation when he wants to argue against gay marriage. He can then proceed to argue from an explicitly theological and Biblical framework, because he's already asserted -through his claim of America as Christian nation - that those claims are normative for everyone living in America.
Am I getting muddled again?
Also, I need some clarity on your comments, which seem to be contradictory:
Matthew: "...To be clear, in your ideal world, we are not a nation that is to be "governed by" Christian beliefs?"
July 15, 2008 4:09 PM
Blogger Chris said...
"Correct...."
July 15, 2008 4:13 PM
Blogger Chris said...
"...I said we are a Christian nation, per my definition. Everyone is governed by the government, which I believe was founded on Christian beliefs. So using that line of logic, they would be governed by those beliefs."
July 15, 2008 4:56 PM
Matthew,
While I believe Christianity does teach that gay marriage isn't what God approves of, I don't think that it's a basic tenet or principle of Christianity. If I had to boil those principles down to one overriding theme, the theme would be to love your neighbor as yourself, which is an ideal that can be pointed to as the basis of the Constitution and the majority of the governing ideals of our country.
While you say gay marriage was brought up to bring real life application in to the discussion, it seems to be more of a red herring to me.
Foodie,
Thanks for the constructive comment. Why so much hatred? If it's in regards to the Obama reference, I took that directly from The Audacity of Hope.
Chris-
Case studies are foundational to most ethical discourse- which seeks to test abstract notions through real-life application. That's what I was trying to do through the gay marriage issue. We can leave it aside if you like.
I'm simply trying to gain clarity on what the point is of proclaiming america a christian nation. Why bother?
And RVA Foodie's point about taking the lord's name in vain is actually quite theologically accurate. Theologians have for centuries taught that doing evil in God's name (genocide or slavery for example) is a far more grave taking of the Lord's name in vain than cursing.
The frustration comes from people like George Bush who authorize torture and drop cluster bombs on Iraq in God's name not receiving the same censure that your co-worker does.
Chris: The irony of my comment may be lost on you. By all means, continue rewriting history, claiming authority over your fellow citizens by virtue of your Sunday gatherings, and selectively laying claim to our country's founding principles.
The tangent was fruitful. Soldier on with that.
OK, RVA may have worded it a bit strongly but that was the intent of the founding fathers. A black man was counted as 3/5 of a person (the 13th Amendment kinda changed that but still somehow excludes Indians). Women were counted but denied all rights. People who did not own property were not allowed to vote and were given no say in government or taxation.
Are these the Christian beliefs that this country was founded upon that your talking about?
Foodie,
Your comment says everything it needs to say in its tone alone. Your irony hasn't escaped anyone.
Congrats on perpetuating the image of a insecure blogger who can't disagree without being snarky and then hide behind the veil of being ironic far beyond the understanding of the rubes with whom you disagree.
Bookstore,
I understand the history of your comment. What is lost here is the reference to loving your neighbor, etc. A lot of terrible things have been done in the name of Christ and the church, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a teaching of Christ (the basis for Christianity) that teaches repression, violence, or any other of the litany of bad things referenced.
Matthew,
I understand the point of a real world example as an illustration. I just feel that you use an example that is extreme and not really at the root of Christianity. Those that make the hatred of amy group of people the focus of their walk with Christ aren't really walking with Christ at all, which I'm sure you will agree with being a minister. Am I correct in that assumption?
Sorry, I thought we were talking about the US being founded as a Christian nation. I can't recall anything about 'love thy neighbor' in the Constitution.
Bookstore,
Why so bitter? Is there something threatening about the love your neighbor idea? Isn't that what liberals are supposed to believe? Why is it that most of your comments have a bent to them that are overwhelmingly negative? If that's what your ideals gets you, a crappy attitude, then count me out!
If you can explain your overall curmudgeoness, go ahead. If not, well then, continue being miserable I guess.
Not bitter, no problem with love your neighbour. Just don't see it in the constitution. Nor do I see the US being founded as a Christian nation.
The founders, for the most part, were Deists who gave only lip service to what we now call Christianity.
My question to you would be what - SPECIFICALLY - causes you to think this country was founded upon Christianity?
Oh, and through all our discussions I have NEVER said you had a 'crappy' attitude or called you other names.
I was really hoping that the theological debate would continue. As a food-blogger who's primarily motivated by his appetites, I just wanted to weigh in on the primary question here. Why seek satisfaction by cursing God? Why say "J F'n C" to make a point.
In foodie terms, it's all about flavor. Four letter words pair nicely with hypocrisy. Like chocolate and coffee: sweet psuedo piety alongside foul and stinking excrement. It's justice, because Christianity has earned it's place among the dirtiest of words, often in the name of the lord. It's just a theory (off the cuff, though it may be), but it makes sense to me. Does that help?
RVA,
I appreciate you talking to the original point raised in my post.
My belief in Christ as the savior of the human race couldn't be further from the "hypocrisy" you mention. I'd be more than willing and prepared to defend the reasons for my faith, if that's truly a discussion you want to have, but I think it's pretty clear you don't have any interest in that.
Thanks for stopping by.
I found this in Wikipedia regarding the founding principles of the United States:
Although celebrated upon publication, the Declaration was initially neglected following the American Revolution. Its symbolic stature grew over the years, most notably through the influence of Abraham Lincoln, who viewed the Declaration as an ideal for which the nation should strive, especially as expressed in Jefferson's famous preamble:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I believe we are a Christian Nation as even Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence that we have a CREATOR and this was a just cause to go to WAR with Great Britain in order to obtain our independence from a repressive government.
Just my thoughts,
Beamer 319
To quote Thomas Jefferson:
'I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.'
To quote James Madison:
'What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.'
To quote Thomas Paine:
'I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).
Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).
It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.'
To quote John Adams:
'The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.'
To sum up - they may have all believed in a 'Creator' but I would not label that a Christian one nor say they intended this to be called a Christian nation.
Bookstore,
I can come up with just as many quotes for the divinity of Christ.
As far as attrocities done in the name of the Lord, well you're absolutely right. There have been a bunch. All I can say is that they're wrong. I've never killed, maimed, oppressed, discriminated against, etc. in the name of the Lord.
I won't win you to "my side" and I'm not trying to.
Since you're a well read fellow, or at least I assume you are since you run a bookstore, what are your thoughts on C.S. Lewis and Mere Christianity?
And what the heck, I'll throw in one quote from good ol' Patrick Henry from his will(I promise this will be the only quote I use):
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
Bookstore,
One more line of questioning...how much have read of the Bible? Truly? What threatens you in the Gospel of Christ, not talking about Christianity here, but the idea of being a follower of Christ?
You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but I figured you would so I asked.
I, nor anyone here, is questioning your belief in the divinity of Christ. You are a pious believer of your own faith and I don't think anyone here is trying to make you believe something else.
People are questioning your premise that this is a nation founded upon Christianity. Regardless of what the founders may have said in public speeches they did believe in a Creator but had issues with the Bible and basing a society on Christianity and the influence of clergy. The lesson to be learned is that they were politicians. Some believing one thing but willing to say another in public in order to sway the populace and to gain power. What they did allow us in their frameworks was to live your life with Christ of free from his followers.
Perhaps the thoughts here (right now) are a bit disjointed, I've had a couple of cocktails but I hope you understand my meaning.
As far as C.S.Lewis. An interesting character. You find as many Christians who hail him as condemn him. I've read many of his books but I've not read Mere Christianity and probably should.
It's all good man. I know you're not really Questioning my belief set.
I appreciate the dialouge. You bring it every time, and you bring it strong BUT respectful which is cool.
You definitely should read Mere Christianity. The complexity of Lewis' thoughts are awesome.
Have a cocktail for me.
To answer the 2nd part - I've read the Bible many times. I suspect their may be a Creator but doubt we can understand him/her or its intentions. The Bible may have been divinely inspired but has been mistranslated, misused, and distorted by man over the centuries that all but the intent of 'be honest and be true' has been lost or perverted to demean others. There may be much to be learned from the Bible but it is to easily used as a weapon or to justify horrific acts. Maybe it should be locked away and just used by scholars theologians but that might just inspire a whole new way to abuse it. I can't make that decision.
Time to go to bed before I blather on too long.
Thomas Jefferson:
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” [Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781]
“It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
[Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson]
Beamer 319
Beamer 319:
TJ also cut up the Bible to suit his own doctrinal needs.
"There has certainly never been a shortage of boldness in the history of biblical scholarship during the past two centuries, but for sheer audacity Thomas Jefferson's two redactions of the Gospels stand out even in that company. It is still a bit overwhelming to contemplate the sangfroid exhibited by the third president of the United States as, razor in hand, he sat editing the Gospels during February 1804, on (as he himself says) "2. or 3. nights only at Washington, after getting thro' the evening task of reading the letters and papers of the day." He was apparently quite sure that he could tell what was genuine and what was not in the transmitted text of the New Testament..."(Thomas Jefferson. The Jefferson Bible; Jefferson and his Contemporaries, an afterward by Jaroslav Pelikan, Boston: Beacon Press, 1989, p. 149.)
So the Bible that proves his beliefs as a Christian was a Bible of his own making.
I believe that Thomas Jefferson was a complicated individual. I also believe that when people start to look at their own mortality, usually in the latter part of their life, they begin to contemplate about eternal life.
It may have been that he felt differently about his chrisitanity throughout his life.
I also believe that you can't lose your salvation. Once you have accepted Christ as your savior, believe that He died on the cross and rose again for our sins and transgressions and confess with our mouths that we are sinners, you will go to heaven.
I have witnessed 70 year olds accept Christ for the first time at Church. It doesn't mean that at some point in time, they didn't believe in Christ or had anything positive to say about Christians.
I am sure that you would agree that its our job to pray for those who don't believe and love thy neighbor which means to me that its easy to love the world but its hard to be nice to the person that you blog with or live next to. As a Christian, I am commanded to love the sinner and not the sin.
Thanks again for the great discussion.
Take Care,
Beamer319
Dang -- you get all the good conversations. -- td
I can't picture Jesus at a Football game yelling "Go Redskins!"
can you???
Ray,
Never really thought about it, but if he watches the NFL, then I'm sure He is a 'Skins fan!
Post a Comment